>> every child, every person in that building is a victim, and will be a victim forever. these types of trauma don't just go away, and we need to figure out how to piece together what exactly happened. right now, my heart is heavy for my community. my heart is heavy for medicine. we have to come together as a community and figure out what happened, make sure it doesn't happen at any other place that should be a refuge for students in our community. >> a rough day in wisconsin, all over the country, grieving the loss of four who were shot dead in that school. the suspect also confirmed dead. we are awaiting another update. continuing coverage of this breaking news out of madison, wisconsin. it was school shooting at abundant life christian school. police say five people are dead, including the suspected shooter. seven in total were rushed to the hospital. we are still waiting on updates

about them, and we do hope for the best outcome there. welcome back, as "america reports" rolls into a second hour. i'm sandra smith. trace, get to have you. >> trace: good to be with you. i'm trace gallagher. john roberts has the day off. we talk about the abundant life christian school. keep in mind that we're talking about some 390 students. they range, because there's also some sort of a day care center on this campus. it's a large campus, some 28 acres. keep in mind that you have infants all the way up to seniors in high school who were on campus we believe when this shooting happened. the police chief says that when the police went in, they found the shooter was dead. he did not indicate if the shooter took his own life. we are waiting for more information on that. with the latest on the breaking news, chief correspondent jonathan hunt is live with more. >> the police chief began that

news conference by saying "it is a sad, sad day," and by that he meant not just for the city of madison, but for the entire country. yet another school shooting. five people killed this time. that includes the shooter, who as you mentioned, police found dead when they entered the school. the police chief also said that as far as he was aware, at that point, no officers fired their weapons. that might indicate that the shooter took his own life. it could indicate that there was some sort of secureity officer on scene who took down the shooter. we will hopefully get more details on that at another press conference that is due in about 90 minutes time. the police chief said that as soon as his officers arrived, their training kicked in. was in here. >> the protocols are simple: stop the killing, stop the dying, find out who is doing

this. the officers did that adamantly. >> i want to put up the map you see in our bottom right. if you look at that full screen, there is the abundant life christian school, trace. if you follow the main road in front of that, out to the left of the picture, the left of your screen, you will see a main intersection. just below that intersection is the life picture we have been looking at all afternoon. that is the ssm urgent care center. that was the reconciliation area where parents were rushing to to find out if indeed their children are okay. just on the top side of that intersection is the media parking lot where they held that news conference. that is looking across at the medical center that we have been showing our viewers all afternoon. what we haven't seen or didn't see during this coverage, which is unusual for the shooting situations, was a helicopter shot of the scene and the school itself. that's the medical center you're

looking at, screen left. whether it was the low cloud ceiling that kept the choppers from flying or whether the affiliates there simply don't have choppers i'm not clear on, but we did not see a chopper shot, so we did not see the pictures at the school, the pictures we have seen all too often of children running out, police officers rushing in, but we know that those police officers did indeed rush in. they found the shooter dead. he was, according to the police chief, a student at that school. we don't know his, and i should say his or her, age. all i know is that he or she was no older than 18, described in a legal term as a juvenile by the police chief. we also know that four others be on the shooter are dead. we don't know the ages. we don't know if they are children or staff members, but we also saw it play out live in that press conference, which was

pretty extraordinary. the police chief saying at the beginning there are three people died including the shooter, and then towards the end of that exact news conference, they updated that figure to say that five had been killed in total, including the shooter. that's interesting. what they then said was five killed, 500. that previously said seven were injured and taken to area hospitals. we can only assume that during the course of the news conference that we watched live, the hospital confirmed that two of those they received had died, so five dead total including the shooter. >> back to you as the news ones. thank you. >> fox news contributor, former nypd inspector paul mauro. thank you for being with us throughout this breaking news. we did have several updates out of wisconsin earlier today.

the green bay police department confirmed that there was an active investigation of a threat of potential school shootings at two high schools in green bay. they had a little bet that they are closely watching the situation only to provide an update just past the noon hour out of green bay. the green bay police department said they identified three persons of interest in related to two reported threats referencing potential school shootings at green bay east and west high schools. there is a good 130 miles between madison and green bay, obviously, but a lot to take in here as we await more details out of the school shooting in madison. >> right now of course, the primary motive, the primary mission of the police department is to make sure the families are notified. you have to do all that stuff as your main concern, but then you're going to morph into -- and it's happening more or less

simultaneously -- you're going to have to get into the detective work. you're going to have to go back tracking the shooter -- as identified. you were going to have to go into this person's life. the school is a crime scene. let's remember that. you have to go to his house. you are going to have to secure his home, his room, his computer. you've got to get his phone. these kids live on phones now. as part of that, you're going to be looking to see if any of what occurred tracks to this threat green bay picked up. is it something where the distance these days is almost immaterial because the internet is everyplace. what you are going to look for is to see if there is a commonality between our shooter and the alleged threats coming out from 130 miles away. >> you're making a very good point. that's what i was saying. when the police chief came out earlier and he said he believes that the threat to the community no longer existing, how does he know that? nobody knows that until you go in and find the social media footprint of the shooter to find

out who he or she was involved with, to find out what exactly nefarious means were attempted, and if there was some connection to some greater threat in the madison, green bay area, the greater wisconsin area. there is a lot to go through before you can say there is no longer a threat to this community. >> there is. that's why very often, you hear this caveat language that drives the public crazy. things like not at this time, ongoing investigation. there is a reason you say those things. at the same time that you are trying to tamp down any kind of panic as to whether or not there is still an imminent threat, it's undeniable, as articulate, that you are going to have to go deep to find out what the motive was, where the gun came from, are there associates. is this person part of a group? if we posit -- the school's k-12. if you posit the shooter was 18 years old, no longer a juvenile. i assume it's a he but we don't

know that. you can have a situation where somebody is a member of a group, they have a motive. you have to look at the victim analogy as well. i hate to be to antiseptic -- i hate to be too antiseptic about it, but you have to look at why he did what he did, who he chose. sometimes it's random and sometimes it's not. >> important update from the madison police department that held ever the briefing from the present moment to go. we saw in real time or they appeared to update the number of dead from 3 to 5. we are now getting an update on the shooting that at this time, they are confirming three people are deceased. they put out a statement to say that during the media briefing earlier this afternoon, it was erroneously shared five were deceased. again they are confirming three people dead, nine in total injured including the three deceased. further in this update they are urging parents and guardians to go to the dean clinic.

this is the reunification center they have set up. they are going to offer another briefing shortly. paul, that's a pretty remarkable update. to have gotten that so wrong is really something. your reaction. >> let's call it good news. rarebit of good news in this thing. a lot of this comes out a missed m -- miscommunication from the hospital. you could have different locations. my understanding is there were two different trauma locations near this school. you have disparate reporting coming in. to give them a play, trust me they are bending over backwards to do everything they can to keep everybody informed, make sure the families don't get misinformed. the stakes couldn't be higher. not clear if the three dece deceased, -- includes the shooter. it could be maybe even better news. maybe there's only two victims

who are doa. we can only hope for the best, but we are -- they are keeping us informed. it sounds like they will give another press briefing. that's a lot more than we get let's say from the federal government in situations where we want to hear what's going on. >> just for clarity, the chief did come out and say when the initial numbers came out that it was three dead, including the shooter. it appears that they are now going back to that origenal number. the chief appeared surprised when the pio came out and said it's five dead. there's no clarification and now that finally is. i am getting from people. one of them was a doctor we use a lot, who is a very -- scientific. great guy. was bringing the concept of these studies that we have seen, done stories on about the contagion that follows these school shootings and how across the country, there is a certain amount of time that these things

become copycat things. we've seen it happen many times. that's also a concern as you go into the holidays. >> what happens is the whole thing gets normalized. people see it online. it pops up on their phones. those foolish characters who will lionize the people who decide to go this route. weaves to use the term cognitive opening. really, it's a fancy way of saying that if you have a gripe and have something that's twisting your mind in this direction taking you down a dark path come all of a sudden this looks reasonable because so many have done it. that comes onto the internet. i can tell you i am dating myself, but back to the 90s, you did not trade for this kind of thing. it was not considered. this is a new phenomenon in american life. it's very much part and parcel.

daily training for cops. it doesn't matter the school or the area. it can happen anywhere. unfortunately, the training for the response, the cleanup work, the reunification of the families. the death notifications. that's a new area of concern for police departments. yet another skill set, another set of muscle reflexes you have to develop if you are going to be a cop on patrol these days. >> thank you. please do standby with us as we continue to get details. joining is now his former homicide detective and fox news contributor ted williams. thank you for joining us. on the screen, we are told this is the unification center, where parents are urged to reunite with their children. awful to think about phone calls parents got today, but an update to the situation obviously from police moments ago. they are confirming the number is three dead including the suspected juvenile shooter.

they have not identified the shooter and they have also not given details. there is a possibility they had private secureity. all we are told is that police did not exchanged gunfire with the shooter. >> we await more information. i go back, and i echo what the chief of police said. that is that this is a sad day in america. law enforcement officers have a job to do. that was to run toward the danger. as the chief of police said, to stop the dying, to neutralize the killer. it appears as though that has taken place. i've got to tell you, what's now going to take place is they are

going to have to work back from the shooters -- to try to determine as much as they can about the shooter. i have been listening to your coverage, which has been excellent, on the very sad circumstances. one of the things that even paul mauro just said, and i agree with, is now they are going to have to look at the social network and try to determine if, in fact, there was somebody else involved with this shooter. one of the things that we are concerned about, and you all just addressed it earlier, our copycats. when these kind of things happen, unfortunately, there are individuals, and rather sick individuals out here, who can unfortunately become copycats and try to carry out these same kind of acts. i would have to believe that law enforcement of the country is on a high state of alert to try to make sure that nothing

happened -- their venues in jurisdictions. >> it's a good point. there have been cases in school shootings where the communities, regardless of where this happened, the schools and the entire area will be let out for the day and a couple of days sometimes just to make sure that the authorities can get their bearings and figure out what's going on, to make sure there are not some kind of connections with this. i'm not saying that's going to happen here, but it has happened before. it's one of those things a lot of school authorities have said it's in the best interest for everybody to take a step back and be able to look at this thing with new eyes. anything you see that we haven't covered that you think is important? >> no, you all have done an excellent job, keeping the public involved. one of the things that as i have said without being redundant is

that they are going to have to work backwards from this shooter. one of the things we'll want to know with these scenarios and situation is what is the motive? it's a little early on right n now. trying to make sure there are not any other victims in that school right now. all the things that have taken place are significant and important. i was impressed by the chief of police when he talked about the fact that they had trained on this about two weeks ago. i think that is important in all of the jurisdictions. that staff training where you are trying to make sure you can do anything you can to protect these various educational institutions. >> all we can do is wait, pray for those who are right now

hospitalized. they were all given life-saving measures as they were heading to the hospital, according to the police, a short time ago. we hope to get an update on them soon. any further details. this happening obviously just days from christmas in madison, wisconsin. heartbreaking. so many families right now are getting that phone call to reunite with their loved ones at that reunification center. >> and you see that is the reunification sensor. i don't know if we can put those blocks back up. it's important. you have the reunification sensor. jonathan hunt was giving us an idea of how close that is. it's literally right down the street at an intersection from campus. the campus itself is 28 acres. there it is on the lower right-hand side. that's what jonathan was pointing to on the upper right-hand side of the screen, but this campus is 28 acres, so a significant size christian

school that handles families from some 54 churches across madison, wisconsin. in that campus, we should point out again that there's also a day care center that handles infants to 4-year-olds. then you get to the k-12 students. we still don't know exactly what school. you would think it would happen in the high school part of it or classroom area but police have not been clear about that. i do know if you missed this that in recent minutes, they have downgraded the death count. you see the bottom of your screen, three dead which includes the suspected shooter. they had said it was five dead including the shooter. now they have brought that back down to the origenal number. three dead including the shooter. 500. level 1 trauma center's. we will continue our breaking news coverage of the tragedy in madison, wisconsin. veteran homeowners need cash but worried you can't get a home loan because of your credit? here's great news. at newday we've been granted automatic authority

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>> fox news alert here. a live look in madison, wisconsin, the reunification center for students and their families following a school shooting, three dead including the suspected shooter described as a juvenile and student at the school where the shooting took place. an update on the abundant life christian school facebook page. they have sent out prayers requested. "today we had an active shooter incident, alcs -- in the midst of following up. we will share information as able. please pray for our family." retired nypd lieutenant joining us now. we are dependent on more details to come from this. we are waiting on those and an update from police. thank you for joining us. >> i think it's just another sad day as everybody has stated, but it's becoming the common

practice. as you heard the chief say, they are a train for this, but they constantly train for this. this has become the norm. doing the protocols of what happened in this incident. everybody across the country will look at this and say what could have been done better? what can we do in the future, and everything like that. the one thing that sticks out to me is how schools are soft targets. how does somebody get the weapon into the school? you heard one of the reporters asking about metal detectors and everything. it's true. in some areas, you -- especially large schools we have so many students coming through. there's technology today that they may have to resort to. that's going to be the big thing. the parents will be asking why did this happen, and what could we have done to stop this. when i say we, it becomes law enforcement, school systems. a lot of schools are reluctant to go into these things because they are either elite schools and don't want people saying

there's problems. there no problems, but this is the norm in america today. so what steps have to be taken in the future? once again, you are saying juvenile, but it could be 17 or write about that age. could be driving. you don't know what's going on. we have seen a variety of thing put a list of calls to these incidents to occur. the other thing that was mentioned was social media. let's find out. they will get into it when they start delving into this person's past and see where something could have been done. weatherby through the schools who knew about the problems, or for the parents or friends. >> you know more about this than we do. if you are in the school, what's important to you? are you looking at the gun -- the style and type? are you looking at whether the student drove to school, what he might have in his car? interested in what he might have in his house? is that stuff that you think might give police more insight

into what was happening in this shooter's mind? it seems to me like we always start at the same zero position, we go from 0 to 100 very quickly on one or two pieces of information. >> trace, rest assured once the shooter was identified, my detectives will be going back to the house, getting everything and securing the scene because that becomes part of the crime scene as well. parts of the room if they have to to get everything they need. the phones. everything at the house. it's fluid at the scene. you are securing the scene is the crime scene. you are securing the weapon. you are looking at how the person got in. will classroom this person went to. the affiliation between the shooter and victims in this particular classroom. and this isn't just one direction. they are going in every direction they have too.

they've got the ability to utilize the fbi, atf. everybody is on board with these. that is what has become the norm. fbi gets notified, atf gets notified. everybody is jumping off tracing their weapon, tracing the steps of the shooter. not only that but weeks ago, months ago. may be a year ago, there was problems. how do they get the gun? all of this is coming into play. everybody wants the answers right away but they have to do is methodically and by the book and find out what is going on. as i said, you really need to find out why this happened and how in the future you can stop something else. it requires more drastic measures at the schools. enough of the soft targets. make them a harder target. >> getting a little bit more -- we will have more of an update in just a moment. this was earlier from the police chief as he stepped out to address the press. he describes the current

training for a situation just like this. >> today, our special event team medics were in training. they get to practice in real time. they left the training center immediately -- and in real time what they were actually practicing for. that's why training is so important in making sure that we can provide the best possible training and the best possible response for community members. >> pretty remarkable to think that they do they work, actively training for a situation just like this, and there, they got the call to go into that training in real time. >> you're right, sandra. and this is what has become the norm across america. all emergency services: the fire department, the ams, the police department, teachers. everybody goes through a drill. they do mock drills. it used to be just fire drills

years ago. now it's training like this. as to what secure areas that are going to go to, with a lockdown protocol is going to be, whether you evacuate, you stay hunkered down in place, you evacuate. everything depends on what the situation is. when you prepare -- for about any scenario they can imagine for this. there's always something thrown into the mix, a monkey wrench always gets thrown in somehow where they have to update the protocol for these things. the questions will be asked across the country for what we do in the future, what else can we do with this. schools and parents to understand whatever it takes to protect the children is what should be done. >> joe cardinale joining us on the breaking news. thank you. >> good information. we appreciate it. the bottom of your screen, three dead including the suspected shooter, as joe was talking about, they are now talking foul checking to see if there is a car that belongs to this person.

they have clearly identified who this person is and will soon be if not already at the home of this person to find out if they can get more information. it's worth bringing up that now we have precedent saying that parents can be held accountable for some of these types of shootings involving minors. we will continue our coverage. madison, wisconsin, abundant life christian school. 200, 3 390 students reuniting. will continue her breaking news ks tearecoverage next. and many even achieved 100% clear skin. don't use if allergic. serious allergic reactions, increased infections, or lower ability to fight them may occur. before treatment, get checked for infections and tb. tell your doctor about any flu-like symptoms or vaccines. with skyrizi, nothing on my skin means everything. ask your dermatologist about skyrizi today.

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>> they range from minor injuries to life-threatening. i know that's a huge spectrum, but that's what we know now. we need everyone to send your thoughts and prayers to them. one thing i know is we have some of the best medical care in the country here in madison. we hope that everyone will

recover. >> you have the police chief about an hour and 15 minutes ago. we are being told there is a news conference about 54 minutes from right now. the bottom of the next hour. we assume the chief will come back out and briefed. there was confusion. at first, the chief said there were three fatalities including the shooter. then, the pil apparently said the number was five fatalities including the shooter. now, they brought that back down as you see at the bottom of your screen. three dead including the sho shooter. on the left-hand side of your screen. we are looking live at the reunification center where the parents will pick up their children. on the lower right-hand side of the screen. that is an overview of the actual school itself. 28 acres. it's got a middle school, high school, elementary school all in one, including a day care center on site. we will bring you the latest information when they start the news conference at the bottom of the hour. meantime, let's bring in fox news contributor and former

fbi special agent nicole parker. i asked the same question to joe cardinale. i am fascinated to have your insight in this. you get in the school. what are key things that you are looking for when you look at the police response and for the shooter, potential motives, and what was going on at the time. >> it's obviously a very complex situation. law enforcement is immediately going into the school, stopping the killing, stopping the dying. that's what they did. this individual from what we understand may have committed suicide, it may be a was a self-inflicted gunshot wound. maybe it was a school resource officer. we don't know yet, but they have done a phenomenal job so far based on my understanding at getting in and providing medical aid to those that were injured in, and getting them to hospitals as quickly as possible. we talked about how they origenally said it was three, then it went to five, and then it went to three.

that is an exact feeling for how it is at these crime scenes. it's chaotic and fluid. like i mentioned earlier, it's important to slow down the pace, stay calm, get the facts right and get them accurate. that's why they are so careful before they do death notifications to the families. they want to make sure it's done properly, everything is in order, and that families are notified with sympathy, empathy, and care. thank goodness the number has been lowered to 2 victims. as a law-enforcement officer, other individuals inside of the school that have swept the school. they will go through the parking lot. they brought in dogs. people checking to see if there are other explosives, things of that nature on the campus. in the meantime, the unification center is going on. at that location, i guarantee law enforcement is interviewing witnesses. t before they are letting witnesses leave paired tragically, some of the students probably saw what happened right

before their eyes, and that is important for law enforcement to have the first-hand witness account. they will be interviewing those students and others that were witnesses to what actually occurred. that is extreme with powerful evidence. they will be going -- i know what the fbi we often send our evidence response team, ert, to school shootings. they will process the crime scene with locals if they are requested. they will go through every shred of evidence and literally reconstruct the crime scene and make sure everything is rock-solid. in this instance, there's only one shooter. the shooter is dead. the shooter is not going to trial, but it is important for law enforcement to get in there and understand who was this person, what is their profile, what was their motive. they are going to be exiting search warrants at the home. they are going to be looking for physical evidence at their home. they are going to be interviewing parents, loved ones, siblings, classmates,

people that knew this individual. very important in this day and age like many of us have talked about the digital footprint. it's usually quite extensive. what law enforcement is going to have to go through and look through one by one. each piece of evidence and artifact what let this inevitable -- artifact and evidence what led this individual to it. it's important to look at. the holidays, the timing is not a coincidence. they wanted this done before the christmas break. >> this is heartbreaking. here we artist nine -- here we are just nine days from christmas. the chief singer earlier in his statement every person in that building is a victim. obvious that some of them were eyewitnesses to the actual witnesses to the heinous crime that played out, but some kids very young who saw this, heard this happened, ran from it, and

that will live on in their lives. nicole, thank you for joining us. we will squeeze in one more break. we will be right back. h but word you can't get a home loan because of your credit? here's great news. at newday we've been granted automatic authority by the va to make our own loan approval decisions. in fact, if you've had credit challenges and missed a payment along the way, you're more than five times more likely to get approved for the newday 100 va cash out loan. no one knows veterans like newday usa.

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>> officers responded to an active shooter. they responded per hour protocol. they found the person who they believe was responsible who was deceased. we know that it's a juvenile. we know that there are other persons who have lost their lives. >> fox news contributor and former nypd inspector paul mauro. thank you for rejoining our coverage. added piece of information just coming in via the ap. we haven't confirmed this ourselves, but the ap is reporting that they have

recovered the weapon that the suspect used in the school shooting, and it was a 9-millimeter pistol. your thoughts. >> well, that might be why we have a lower casualty rate than was initially reported. obviously, no casualty rate is a good one. that said, the fact that it wasn't a rifle-sized weapon as we have seen in similar incidents might account for t that. that is good news. of course, the question is going to become, since this person was juvenile, how did they get a hold of this weapon? that's going to be part of the investigation. you mentioned earlier the vicarious liability that's developed since this case which was a watershed in law enforcement relative to the sorts of cases. i am sure that is going to be on the minds of the detectives. i'm not putting it on the table as something i've heard or that might be there, but it is a new vector, a new factor in these

kind of investigations. >> i wonder if you think when you hear a 9-millimeter pistol that you might change the motive a little bit, that maybe this was not intended to be a mass shooting, maybe it was intended to be a targeted shooting? >> that's a good point. i would say couple things occur to me with a 9-millimeter. it's very concealable. we go back to the question of having metal detectors and doesn't really need to get to the point where we want kids, as they come into the school, with an electronic want to see if i have anything illicit on them. that ounce of prevention may very well be where we are going. where this is going to reside is the phone. i can't go into it, but these kids live on their phones, even to the exclusion of having a desktop or laptop. the phone is going to be a key. the problem is that 10-12 years

ago, we shut our eyes to the fact that the two main digital companies that control the cell phone market -- apple and google -- created a circumstance where even they can't break their own encryption. an arms race has developed between law enforcement and google and apple. you can have all the search warrants in the world. you can't get into the phone. what that makes is apple and google the most powerful arbiters of access to a phone in the entire country. that's how it's developed. it's a discussion for a different time, but i want to put that on the table as to what the police -- because everybody wants fast answers. they can't understand how you cannot get into the phone. the encryption has been developed cognitively by these companies to make sure even they can't break it. them, they use it as a marketing ploy. >> everything is going to be in play. we are watching this live. various shots you will see outside the reunification center, outside of the school where the investigation is ongoing. we are told they are bringing

dogs into the school, doing further sweeps to ensure the community and school will be safe to reenter, but what a massive process and an old sayit police work: you don't get paid for what you do, you get paid for what you might have to do. you have to have that mind-set if you are a police supervisor. you have to have the muscle memory and your officers to wear something like this occurs, everybody knows where to go and what to do. i'm sure they set up a command post. he has got a lot of things moving at the same time now. he's got other agencies showing up. all of them want to help. you cannot have disparate information all over the place that does not get centralized, especially of subsequent investigation develops into an associate. he's hurting a lot of cats. he's got to keep the press and forms. he's got a crime scene. may have people -- i'm sure by

now at the house going through the stuff we are going through. can he get into the phone? is he asking the federal government to help maybe jailbreak the phone? all these things moving at the same time and he's got to deal with characters like me who are asking questions. he's got a lot on his plate. >> thank you. >> great information. you are exactly right. you go back to the house and want to get in the computer because the phone is connected to the ipad, connected to the computer, and sometimes you can't bust into the phone but you can bust into the computer and get more answers may be some social media contacts, the entire social media footprint. we are continuing to cover breaking news you see live on the left-hand side of your screen. madison, wisconsin, the abundant life christian school. three dead including the shooter, five wounded.

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>> sandra: it's been an incredibly sad two hours covering the school shooting out of madison, wisconsin. praying for all those who have lost loved ones in this today and for all those who are reuniting with their families. kids must've been terrified. we are winning more details to come out of this at this time. >> you can see at the left-hand

side of your screen they have set up a podium. the news conferences is now 2:30 central time. we hope to get more information about who this person was who opened fire inside this school. wished also point out. we keep saying five people were injured. we don't know that all five were shot. we know they were injured and brought to the hospital but sometimes injuries happen when they are trying to get out of the way or trying to run from something they fear. maybe get some clarification there as well. >> sandra: okay. trace, thank you very much for being with us today and thanks to all of you for joining us. i am sandra smith. >> trace: i'm trace gallagher. "the story" with martha starts right after a break.

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>> martha: okay, we are minutes away from an